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article appearing in Thursday, July 26, 2007 Africa Today online issue;
INTERVIEW
"I want to bring about change to Kenya"06/28/07, Kayode Soyinka
Raila Odinga, leader of Kenya's National
Development Party and one of the eight registered presidential candidates
for the December 2007 elections, campaigns in Nairobi. Odinga is the son
of the late Oginga Odinga, the father of opposition politics in Kenya
History has a way of repeating itself. Jaramogi Oginga Odinga
was an influential Kenya nationalist and a great ally of the founding leader
of that nation Jomo Kenyatta. But they parted political company after fundamentally
disagreeing on whether their nation should take either the socialist or
capitalist course. Odinga then went into opposition against Kenyatta. Odinga's
son Raila, now finds himself in the same predicament. He was instrumental
to the formation of the alliance that won incumbent President Kibaki the election
of 2002. But after the president reneges on the MoU signed with Raila's party,
the scion of the great nationalist goes into opposition and is its leading
figure trying to wrestle power from President Kibaki. In this interview with
Africa Today's Publisher and Editor-in-Chief Kayode Soyinka, presidential
candidate, the Rt. Hon. Raila Odinga MP, speaks passionately about Kenyan
politics and why he wants a chance to rule the east African nation.
AFRICA TODAY: I want to put this interview into some historical
perspective for the benefit of our readers worldwide by first of all letting
them know that you are the son of the late Kenyan political icon and nationalist
leader, the great Jaramogi Oginga Odinga. In fact, two names were synonymous
with Kenya's independence and political struggles - Jomo Kenyatta himself
and your father's Oginga Odinga. How would you best describe the relationship
that existed between them?
ODINGA: At infancy when I was young, growing up, Kenyatta had been detained, and my father was nostalgic about Kenyatta. I still have my first memory of Kenyatta; he had come here in Kisumu in 1949 for his first meeting and he made a lasting impression on my father as a true African nationalist and patriot. And he spoke fondly and very positively at the time of Kenyatta. That was in the early 50s. He then got involved in politics championing the cause of the East for Kenyatta. He was very dedicated and determined; he went to the extent of describing Kenyatta as second to God for the African people. When he was elected as one of the first Africans to enter parliament he made the historic speech that in the heart of hearts of the African people, Kenyatta and those detained with him were their true leaders. This then led to the momentum to push for the release of Kenyatta. The slogan then was uhuru na Kenyatta, meaning independence with Kenyatta, until Kenyatta was eventually released. You need to know here that when this independence movement had gathered momentum, in 1961 the colonial governor approached my father and asked him to form a government and become the first prime minister. But he rejected the offer because he considered it a total betrayal and he instead insisted that Kenyatta must be released from detention because he considered him to be the first leader of this country, and that there would be no independence without Kenyatta. That basically was the kind of attachment that my father had to Kenyatta. Kenyatta was then released and became the leader of the movement, the party then was Kenyan National Union (KANU) and my father was vice-president until independence. At independence Kenyatta became president and my father became the first vice-president of Kenya. I will say the relationship was very cordial until a certain point in our history when they disagreed on certain matters. Basically these were about certain reforms that were required and which had been promised by the nationalist movement. They then became adversaries. My father eventually reluctantly resigned his position as the vice-president and formed a party in opposition, the first opposition party post-independence. The disagreement actually took place in 1966.
ODINGA: At infancy when I was young, growing up, Kenyatta had been detained, and my father was nostalgic about Kenyatta. I still have my first memory of Kenyatta; he had come here in Kisumu in 1949 for his first meeting and he made a lasting impression on my father as a true African nationalist and patriot. And he spoke fondly and very positively at the time of Kenyatta. That was in the early 50s. He then got involved in politics championing the cause of the East for Kenyatta. He was very dedicated and determined; he went to the extent of describing Kenyatta as second to God for the African people. When he was elected as one of the first Africans to enter parliament he made the historic speech that in the heart of hearts of the African people, Kenyatta and those detained with him were their true leaders. This then led to the momentum to push for the release of Kenyatta. The slogan then was uhuru na Kenyatta, meaning independence with Kenyatta, until Kenyatta was eventually released. You need to know here that when this independence movement had gathered momentum, in 1961 the colonial governor approached my father and asked him to form a government and become the first prime minister. But he rejected the offer because he considered it a total betrayal and he instead insisted that Kenyatta must be released from detention because he considered him to be the first leader of this country, and that there would be no independence without Kenyatta. That basically was the kind of attachment that my father had to Kenyatta. Kenyatta was then released and became the leader of the movement, the party then was Kenyan National Union (KANU) and my father was vice-president until independence. At independence Kenyatta became president and my father became the first vice-president of Kenya. I will say the relationship was very cordial until a certain point in our history when they disagreed on certain matters. Basically these were about certain reforms that were required and which had been promised by the nationalist movement. They then became adversaries. My father eventually reluctantly resigned his position as the vice-president and formed a party in opposition, the first opposition party post-independence. The disagreement actually took place in 1966.
AFRICA TODAY: I have spoken to many Kenyans since I arrived in
the country and they told me that you are today undoubtedly the biggest name
in opposition to the government led by President Kibaki. How has your family,
especially your father and his legacies influenced your political thinking
and the role you now play yourself in Kenyan politics as an MP and opposition
leader?
ODINGA: I grew up in a political family, therefore I can say that I learnt from my father in my early days, and I was able to appreciate the struggle for the independence of this country, the price that people had to pay for independence, and I have since then watched post-independence developments. But I went into politics by choice, in other words, my decision to participate in the politics of this country was not in any way influenced by my father, although I am saying that I learnt from him. I became actively involved here as a student leader when I was studying in Europe. And when I came back here to Kenya, that was the time when my father was the leader of the opposition and the politics was so highly polarised. I arrived here when a famous incident that is now described as the Kisumu Massacre took place in 1969. That was when Kenyatta came to Kisumu to supposedly perform an official opening, which had been delayed for a long time; he used that as an excuse, many people were shot and killed. Officially 69 people were reportedly killed, while unofficially it was more than a hundred. They were shot dead. It was said that they threw stones at the president, I was present myself and I knew that their only crime was that they waved KPU salute which was the greetings of the opposition, and Kenyatta was waving the KANU salute. That incident was used to proscribe the then opposition party led by my father - the KPU - and my father and some of his colleagues were arrested and sent to political detention without trial. So I found myself having to look after my family and at the same time got involved in politics, but I did not get involve in direct active politics at that time because I had to look after the family. My father was in detention for one and a half years before he was released. When he was released, in order to move on, I got a job as a lecturer at the University of Nairobi. I am an engineer by profession, so I also became a consultant. But then you can see that the political repression that had been instituted in the country following the proscription of the opposition party and the introduction of a single-party dictatorship. It was too much for Kenyans. A number of Kenyans got involved in opposition politics; many of them were arrested and detained for a long time without trial. The 1970s was a period of political repression. When my father came out of detention he was not allowed to participate in politics. Although he joined the then ruling party, he was never allowed to participate in elections. All the members of the former opposition party were supposed to get clearance and they were never given clearance. In the election of 1974 they did not participate, in 1979 they did not participate, in 1981 somebody resigned for my father to contest elections, and again, he was denied. When we then decided to form our own political party, my father was invited to London to address members of the House of Commons. In his address, he indicated that he was going back to Kenya to form a new party, so he let the cat out of the bag. When he came back, the government went to parliament to introduce to bill that was called Sekou Toure. The bill was brought to parliament in record time, and within half an hour, it was passed. That made the country a de jure single party dictatorship. It had been de facto since 1969 when the KPU had been banned, but now in 1982 it became de jure. Basically they blocked us. We had already prepared the manifesto and the constitution of the party, and at that time many people had been arrested, particularly lecturers at the university (seven of them) and detained with a number of politicians. Then came in 1982, a coup attempt that did not succeed. The government used that as an excuse to arrest many people they considered as political opponents. They were charged and tried in kangaroo courts. Someone like me, I was charged with treason. After six months and without any evidence, the court entered nulli prose cue. Before we could leave the court premises we were rearrested and served with fresh detention orders. That was my first detention. It lasted six years! I was released in February 1988. I was out for only six months exactly. By August 1988 I was arrested again on the pretext that I was involved in certain political activities against the government and sent to detention again. This time, a torture chamber had already been constructed. I spent 10 days in waterlogged cells, where I was beaten up and blindfolded. My wife went to court and made a habeas corpus application and that was what actually saved me from the torture. So they decided to detain me, and I spent another one year in detention, released in 1989. I was out only for one year and then the clamour for multi-party democracy was on. Some two politicians came out to say that they wanted section 2A to be repealed so that people could form political parties. They were called Kenneth Matiba and Charles Rubia. They and I tried to come together to put pressure and they encouraged us to go and have a rally to ask Kenyans if they wanted other new political parties or not. Before the day of the rally we were arrested and sent to detention. Again, another one year. So I spent a total of eight-and-a-half years in political detention - three times up to 1991. When I came out in 1991, we decided to form a pressure group called FORD - The Forum for the Restoration of Democracy in Kenya. My father was still very active and joined. We were together. As the issue was gathering momentum - this was a development following the fall of the Berlin Wall, the wind of change that was blowing in Eastern Europe was also blowing on the continent of Africa - they realized that this forum was going to be unstoppable. So, some external security agents tipped me off that these people this time around would not detain me but they were going to kill me, hence my flight to exile. I was in Norway for six months and then opened offices in London, Paris and Bonn to put pressure. Eventually they allowed me to come back, when the pressure was mounted from the British House of Commons. This was how I was given a one-way travel document from the Kenyan High Commission in London to come back. This time they had repealed section 2A and our movement had been transformed into a political party. That was 1992. I became deputy director of elections in the party and I contested a seat in Nairobi for the first time in 1992 and won. So that is the long journey of my introduction to politics.
ODINGA: I grew up in a political family, therefore I can say that I learnt from my father in my early days, and I was able to appreciate the struggle for the independence of this country, the price that people had to pay for independence, and I have since then watched post-independence developments. But I went into politics by choice, in other words, my decision to participate in the politics of this country was not in any way influenced by my father, although I am saying that I learnt from him. I became actively involved here as a student leader when I was studying in Europe. And when I came back here to Kenya, that was the time when my father was the leader of the opposition and the politics was so highly polarised. I arrived here when a famous incident that is now described as the Kisumu Massacre took place in 1969. That was when Kenyatta came to Kisumu to supposedly perform an official opening, which had been delayed for a long time; he used that as an excuse, many people were shot and killed. Officially 69 people were reportedly killed, while unofficially it was more than a hundred. They were shot dead. It was said that they threw stones at the president, I was present myself and I knew that their only crime was that they waved KPU salute which was the greetings of the opposition, and Kenyatta was waving the KANU salute. That incident was used to proscribe the then opposition party led by my father - the KPU - and my father and some of his colleagues were arrested and sent to political detention without trial. So I found myself having to look after my family and at the same time got involved in politics, but I did not get involve in direct active politics at that time because I had to look after the family. My father was in detention for one and a half years before he was released. When he was released, in order to move on, I got a job as a lecturer at the University of Nairobi. I am an engineer by profession, so I also became a consultant. But then you can see that the political repression that had been instituted in the country following the proscription of the opposition party and the introduction of a single-party dictatorship. It was too much for Kenyans. A number of Kenyans got involved in opposition politics; many of them were arrested and detained for a long time without trial. The 1970s was a period of political repression. When my father came out of detention he was not allowed to participate in politics. Although he joined the then ruling party, he was never allowed to participate in elections. All the members of the former opposition party were supposed to get clearance and they were never given clearance. In the election of 1974 they did not participate, in 1979 they did not participate, in 1981 somebody resigned for my father to contest elections, and again, he was denied. When we then decided to form our own political party, my father was invited to London to address members of the House of Commons. In his address, he indicated that he was going back to Kenya to form a new party, so he let the cat out of the bag. When he came back, the government went to parliament to introduce to bill that was called Sekou Toure. The bill was brought to parliament in record time, and within half an hour, it was passed. That made the country a de jure single party dictatorship. It had been de facto since 1969 when the KPU had been banned, but now in 1982 it became de jure. Basically they blocked us. We had already prepared the manifesto and the constitution of the party, and at that time many people had been arrested, particularly lecturers at the university (seven of them) and detained with a number of politicians. Then came in 1982, a coup attempt that did not succeed. The government used that as an excuse to arrest many people they considered as political opponents. They were charged and tried in kangaroo courts. Someone like me, I was charged with treason. After six months and without any evidence, the court entered nulli prose cue. Before we could leave the court premises we were rearrested and served with fresh detention orders. That was my first detention. It lasted six years! I was released in February 1988. I was out for only six months exactly. By August 1988 I was arrested again on the pretext that I was involved in certain political activities against the government and sent to detention again. This time, a torture chamber had already been constructed. I spent 10 days in waterlogged cells, where I was beaten up and blindfolded. My wife went to court and made a habeas corpus application and that was what actually saved me from the torture. So they decided to detain me, and I spent another one year in detention, released in 1989. I was out only for one year and then the clamour for multi-party democracy was on. Some two politicians came out to say that they wanted section 2A to be repealed so that people could form political parties. They were called Kenneth Matiba and Charles Rubia. They and I tried to come together to put pressure and they encouraged us to go and have a rally to ask Kenyans if they wanted other new political parties or not. Before the day of the rally we were arrested and sent to detention. Again, another one year. So I spent a total of eight-and-a-half years in political detention - three times up to 1991. When I came out in 1991, we decided to form a pressure group called FORD - The Forum for the Restoration of Democracy in Kenya. My father was still very active and joined. We were together. As the issue was gathering momentum - this was a development following the fall of the Berlin Wall, the wind of change that was blowing in Eastern Europe was also blowing on the continent of Africa - they realized that this forum was going to be unstoppable. So, some external security agents tipped me off that these people this time around would not detain me but they were going to kill me, hence my flight to exile. I was in Norway for six months and then opened offices in London, Paris and Bonn to put pressure. Eventually they allowed me to come back, when the pressure was mounted from the British House of Commons. This was how I was given a one-way travel document from the Kenyan High Commission in London to come back. This time they had repealed section 2A and our movement had been transformed into a political party. That was 1992. I became deputy director of elections in the party and I contested a seat in Nairobi for the first time in 1992 and won. So that is the long journey of my introduction to politics.
AFRICA TODAY: Who is Raila Odinga?
ODINGA: Raila Odinga is a political leader. He is a social democrat who believes that there is need for social justice in our society. But he believes also that we need to create wealth in our societies as Africans. I believe strongly that we need to give the private sector a chance to serve as an engine for wealth creation. But I also believe that there should be equity in the sharing of the fruits of our labour, which is now known popularly as the Third Way. I am also a pan-Africanist. Before I am a social democrat, Raila Odinga is a pan-Africanist. I am also an Afro-Optimist as opposed to Afro-Pessimist. I believe strongly in the ability of the people of Africa to develop the African continent. I believe that Africa will be developed through the efforts of the African people. It is a paradox that Africa, the richest continent in terms of resources, is also the poorest. We should stop lamenting about our colonial past and face up squarely to the task of developing our continent. There are countries in other continents that were also colonized but they stopped lamenting, got on with the task, and they were able to move forward and they have actually now attained a much higher status of development. I give an example of South Korea. At independence the economy of South Korea and that of Kenya were almost at par in terms of GDP, in terms of per capita income, in terms of the level of poverty, literacy levels, the level of industrialization - South Korea and Kenya were almost at the same level of economic development. Forty three years down the road, Korea's economy is forty times larger than that of Kenya. And you ask what it is that the Koreans did right that Kenyans got wrong? The answer to that question actually illuminates the problems not only of Kenya but also the rest of Africa. And I believe that we have not moved on to mobilize our human and material resources for faster socio-economic development. We did not invest in manpower development as we should have done. We did not create conducive environment to attract direct foreign investment like the southeast Asian countries have done. In Africa there are too many restrictions and too much interference particularly by the state. The state's role should be regulatory other than directly getting involved. The issue of corruption also has impeded development in Africa. There is corruption everywhere, but the difference is what the government does especially when it is discovered. What you have had in Africa is state-sanctioned corruption, which diverts resources from developmental purposes into private pockets and bank accounts of people outside. Flight of capital has been a big impediment to African development.
ODINGA: Raila Odinga is a political leader. He is a social democrat who believes that there is need for social justice in our society. But he believes also that we need to create wealth in our societies as Africans. I believe strongly that we need to give the private sector a chance to serve as an engine for wealth creation. But I also believe that there should be equity in the sharing of the fruits of our labour, which is now known popularly as the Third Way. I am also a pan-Africanist. Before I am a social democrat, Raila Odinga is a pan-Africanist. I am also an Afro-Optimist as opposed to Afro-Pessimist. I believe strongly in the ability of the people of Africa to develop the African continent. I believe that Africa will be developed through the efforts of the African people. It is a paradox that Africa, the richest continent in terms of resources, is also the poorest. We should stop lamenting about our colonial past and face up squarely to the task of developing our continent. There are countries in other continents that were also colonized but they stopped lamenting, got on with the task, and they were able to move forward and they have actually now attained a much higher status of development. I give an example of South Korea. At independence the economy of South Korea and that of Kenya were almost at par in terms of GDP, in terms of per capita income, in terms of the level of poverty, literacy levels, the level of industrialization - South Korea and Kenya were almost at the same level of economic development. Forty three years down the road, Korea's economy is forty times larger than that of Kenya. And you ask what it is that the Koreans did right that Kenyans got wrong? The answer to that question actually illuminates the problems not only of Kenya but also the rest of Africa. And I believe that we have not moved on to mobilize our human and material resources for faster socio-economic development. We did not invest in manpower development as we should have done. We did not create conducive environment to attract direct foreign investment like the southeast Asian countries have done. In Africa there are too many restrictions and too much interference particularly by the state. The state's role should be regulatory other than directly getting involved. The issue of corruption also has impeded development in Africa. There is corruption everywhere, but the difference is what the government does especially when it is discovered. What you have had in Africa is state-sanctioned corruption, which diverts resources from developmental purposes into private pockets and bank accounts of people outside. Flight of capital has been a big impediment to African development.
Odinga (R) shakes the hand of former President
Daniel arap Moi (L) when he dissolved his party to join the ruling KANU
party in 2000. It was a short-lived marriage
AFRICA TODAY: You also have a wife who is a political Amazon in
Kenyan politics today. She is the chairperson of the League of Women Politicians
in Kenya. Tell us about her, and are you not in fact somewhat envious of her
political achievements and fame in her own right?
ODINGA: On the contrary. I am actually very proud of and happy for her. She in a way compliments my efforts. We have bonded very well as a couple. She was not always political, but she has actually been politicized by the state. She has actually also borne the brunt of this struggle because as you can see you we were actually not eight years into our marriage when I started my detention life. At that time our three children were still very young. Two of them were in nursery schools. She had to transfer them from the schools because we could not afford the high fees that they were paying and took them to cheaper schools. Though she was a teacher herself, her children were rejected in several schools. They won't touch them, they were untouchable. At last we found a mission school that accepted the children. She was fending for the family for all these years that I was away in prison. The other time when I was in detention and she filed for the habeas corpus application, she was sacked from her job through radio announcement, the head teacher just telling her that she had instructions that she must be sacked. She was then living in the school compound and she must leave within three hours and to find accommodation was a big problem. She went in the night under very difficult conditions to find some shelter. She was reinstated after the Amnesty International made noise, but taken to the ministry of education where she was doing nothing but writing speeches. Then she was sacked again the second time, this time for visiting the mothers of political prisoners who were protesting and were camped somewhere in a church. She then became involved in business and she is now the managing director of our company but also involved in women activities. I am really proud of her.
ODINGA: On the contrary. I am actually very proud of and happy for her. She in a way compliments my efforts. We have bonded very well as a couple. She was not always political, but she has actually been politicized by the state. She has actually also borne the brunt of this struggle because as you can see you we were actually not eight years into our marriage when I started my detention life. At that time our three children were still very young. Two of them were in nursery schools. She had to transfer them from the schools because we could not afford the high fees that they were paying and took them to cheaper schools. Though she was a teacher herself, her children were rejected in several schools. They won't touch them, they were untouchable. At last we found a mission school that accepted the children. She was fending for the family for all these years that I was away in prison. The other time when I was in detention and she filed for the habeas corpus application, she was sacked from her job through radio announcement, the head teacher just telling her that she had instructions that she must be sacked. She was then living in the school compound and she must leave within three hours and to find accommodation was a big problem. She went in the night under very difficult conditions to find some shelter. She was reinstated after the Amnesty International made noise, but taken to the ministry of education where she was doing nothing but writing speeches. Then she was sacked again the second time, this time for visiting the mothers of political prisoners who were protesting and were camped somewhere in a church. She then became involved in business and she is now the managing director of our company but also involved in women activities. I am really proud of her.
AFRICA TODAY: Is she a Luo like you?
ODINGA: She is Luo but has mixed parentage. Her mother is Luhya and her father is Luo. In our family, ethnicity is not a big issue.
ODINGA: She is Luo but has mixed parentage. Her mother is Luhya and her father is Luo. In our family, ethnicity is not a big issue.
AFRICA TODAY: Men in the Luo community, I understand, usually
have more than one wife. Why did you decide to be different and be a one-wife
man? Is it a demonstration to your Luo people that you are a modern man?
ODINGA: Not really, our society is evolving. It goes down through the memory lane, not just Luos, most Africans are polygamous. It is just the evolution, the changing economic setting that is actually conditioning people to have one wife, and you may call it the nucleus family as it were. A number of Luo families of my generation have single wives.
ODINGA: Not really, our society is evolving. It goes down through the memory lane, not just Luos, most Africans are polygamous. It is just the evolution, the changing economic setting that is actually conditioning people to have one wife, and you may call it the nucleus family as it were. A number of Luo families of my generation have single wives.
AFRICA TODAY: Your wife is also always by your side in public,
which is unlike many Kenyan men politicians?
ODINGA: No, no, you see she is a partner. I consider her to be a partner. It is not that she imposes herself beside me. I ask her sometimes to come along. But there are a number of times that she is not with me especially like now when I am in the field. But when we are going to social places we go together. But we cannot be in the field together because somebody has to be working somewhere to make some money for the family.
ODINGA: No, no, you see she is a partner. I consider her to be a partner. It is not that she imposes herself beside me. I ask her sometimes to come along. But there are a number of times that she is not with me especially like now when I am in the field. But when we are going to social places we go together. But we cannot be in the field together because somebody has to be working somewhere to make some money for the family.
AFRICA TODAY: The Luo community where you hail from is perhaps
the one with the largest number of well-educated Kenyans. If we have twelve
Kenyan medical doctors may be about nine would be Luo. If we have ten Kenyan
engineers, may be about seven would be Luo. You are also the most passionate
in terms of politics. Yet, it is the community that seems to have suffered
most in the hands of successive administrations through political assassinations,
jailing, or like you in solitary confinement, if not in detention without
trial in the past. Tom Mboya, who was used by Kenyatta to counter your father's
influence in the Luo Community after they fell out, was a Luo himself.
How much integration has taken place really in Kenya and how much consideration
is still being given to tribal allegiance in deciding who gets what in Kenya
today? Say who becomes president for instance or which region gets what
in terms of distribution of political positions and resources?
ODINGA: Your statistics may not be true today. They are historical figures. They may have been true earlier on. But things have changed drastically over the years and other communities in Kenya now have many highly qualified doctors and engineers, lawyers and so on. But then to get back to the issue of ethnicity; you see, ethnicity is a factor in politics not just in Kenya but also in many African countries. Here in Kenya, the British who introduced the policy of divide and rule first introduced it. They were the ones who told some of our people that they came from small tribes and that if they were not careful the Luos and Kikuyus would lord it over them after independence. They created their political parties clearly based on tribal affiliations after independence and it continued in the first post-independence government. In fact Kenyatta when the team of politicians challenged him led by my father - the Reformists who wanted major reforms in the economy - he retreated into his cocoon and surrounded himself with people who were mainly from his ethnic community. The politics then was the politics of propaganda. The propaganda then was that the Luos wanted to remove the Kikuyu from power. That the Jaramogi - that is my father's name - wanted to take the power out of the House of Mumbi, that is the Kikuyus' legendary ancestor. So Kenyatta basically used ethnicity as a game of survival. So when Moi took over from him Moi perfected the art of dividing people along ethnic lines. He would play one community against the other community. That is the reason why ethnicity has continued to be a very strong factor in our national politics. It has been evident in the multi-party elections that took place since the repeal of section 2A and the introduction of multi-party democracy in 1992 and in 1997. It was only in 2002 that we were able to unite as the opposition and presented President Kibaki as the Kikuyu candidate. I proposed him as the candidate. It was only then that we were able to bring these communities together. It had been said that a Luo cannot vote for a Kikuyu, and when I proposed Kibaki, some people said I had written my political will, that I could never survive it and that no Luo would vote for a Kikuyu because of the historical past - Kenyatta, my father, Mboya and his assassination. But I argued that there was never any enmity between the Luos and the Kikuyus. The difference between Kenyatta and my father had been ideological. My father wanted a socialist way of development; Kenyatta wanted a capitalist way of development. My father's chief lieutenant was Bildad Kaggiya, who was a Kikuyu. While Kenyatta's chief lieutenant was Tom Mboya, who was a Luo. It was ideological rather than ethnic. Under Kenyatta's rule the common Kikuyu did not benefit better than the common Luo. Just like under Moi, an ordinary Kalenjin did not benefit better that an ordinary Embu, for example. So, I said we should not visit Kenyatta's ills and mistakes on Kibaki. So I went and sold it to the Luos and they bought it. So the Luos went, every man and woman, 98 percent of the Luos, voted for Kibaki as president. That in my view basically destroyed the basis of ethnic politics. Although the Kibaki regime has tried to replicate the Kenyatta regime as far as ethnic manipulation is concerned, it is not the thinking particularly among the younger generation, even from his ethnic community. I think that we dealt a major dent on ethnicity in the 2002 elections. And many Kikuyus, particularly the younger ones, feel that Kibaki has badly and unfairly treated me. And I am very confident that this is going to become evident in the coming elections.
ODINGA: Your statistics may not be true today. They are historical figures. They may have been true earlier on. But things have changed drastically over the years and other communities in Kenya now have many highly qualified doctors and engineers, lawyers and so on. But then to get back to the issue of ethnicity; you see, ethnicity is a factor in politics not just in Kenya but also in many African countries. Here in Kenya, the British who introduced the policy of divide and rule first introduced it. They were the ones who told some of our people that they came from small tribes and that if they were not careful the Luos and Kikuyus would lord it over them after independence. They created their political parties clearly based on tribal affiliations after independence and it continued in the first post-independence government. In fact Kenyatta when the team of politicians challenged him led by my father - the Reformists who wanted major reforms in the economy - he retreated into his cocoon and surrounded himself with people who were mainly from his ethnic community. The politics then was the politics of propaganda. The propaganda then was that the Luos wanted to remove the Kikuyu from power. That the Jaramogi - that is my father's name - wanted to take the power out of the House of Mumbi, that is the Kikuyus' legendary ancestor. So Kenyatta basically used ethnicity as a game of survival. So when Moi took over from him Moi perfected the art of dividing people along ethnic lines. He would play one community against the other community. That is the reason why ethnicity has continued to be a very strong factor in our national politics. It has been evident in the multi-party elections that took place since the repeal of section 2A and the introduction of multi-party democracy in 1992 and in 1997. It was only in 2002 that we were able to unite as the opposition and presented President Kibaki as the Kikuyu candidate. I proposed him as the candidate. It was only then that we were able to bring these communities together. It had been said that a Luo cannot vote for a Kikuyu, and when I proposed Kibaki, some people said I had written my political will, that I could never survive it and that no Luo would vote for a Kikuyu because of the historical past - Kenyatta, my father, Mboya and his assassination. But I argued that there was never any enmity between the Luos and the Kikuyus. The difference between Kenyatta and my father had been ideological. My father wanted a socialist way of development; Kenyatta wanted a capitalist way of development. My father's chief lieutenant was Bildad Kaggiya, who was a Kikuyu. While Kenyatta's chief lieutenant was Tom Mboya, who was a Luo. It was ideological rather than ethnic. Under Kenyatta's rule the common Kikuyu did not benefit better than the common Luo. Just like under Moi, an ordinary Kalenjin did not benefit better that an ordinary Embu, for example. So, I said we should not visit Kenyatta's ills and mistakes on Kibaki. So I went and sold it to the Luos and they bought it. So the Luos went, every man and woman, 98 percent of the Luos, voted for Kibaki as president. That in my view basically destroyed the basis of ethnic politics. Although the Kibaki regime has tried to replicate the Kenyatta regime as far as ethnic manipulation is concerned, it is not the thinking particularly among the younger generation, even from his ethnic community. I think that we dealt a major dent on ethnicity in the 2002 elections. And many Kikuyus, particularly the younger ones, feel that Kibaki has badly and unfairly treated me. And I am very confident that this is going to become evident in the coming elections.
Odinga (Middle) appears at a rally with
other heavyweights of Kenyan politics - Uhuru Kenyatta (R) and William Ruto
(L). They were the leaders of the anti-draft constitution 'NO' democratic
group in 2005
AFRICA TODAY: In the past, the perception that was created was
that the Luo people are a rebellious lot, giving reason to successive governments
to marginalize the ethnic group. Is this a fact or a creation of the media?
Do you get the impression that there is a limit beyond which you may not
be able to ascend to power as a Luo? Your father, as the respected doyen
of Kenyan opposition, exemplified this feeling when he publicly prayed to
the Kenyan populace to give him just one day to rule Kenya without success?
ODINGA: It is not the question of the Luos being a rebellious lot. It is just a question of people standing up for their rights. You see what has been the case is that people of Kenya had been struggling for change, now it depends on who is leading the movement for change. If you come up to say we need change, they will not look at you as representing yourself, they will look at you as the representative of your community. But it was my father who was spearheading the movement for change. And very many Luo civil servants became victims; they were sacked from their jobs. Intellectuals from the universities were sacked from their jobs; those who were not were not getting promotions. Executives in companies were just being sacked. So they became victims. As a result, there was a lot of resentment and despondency among the common men when they saw this kind of repression being meted out to innocent people. So it is not that the Luos are a rebellious people as such; they have been victims of ethnic victimization and ethnic cleansing. That is why there has been resistance. So it is not by nature that we are people who would just oppose for the purpose of just opposing. You see, Kenya and by extension Africa will never develop until we deal a death blow to this animal called ethnicity. A nation that is run along ethnic lines is a nation that is at war with itself.
ODINGA: It is not the question of the Luos being a rebellious lot. It is just a question of people standing up for their rights. You see what has been the case is that people of Kenya had been struggling for change, now it depends on who is leading the movement for change. If you come up to say we need change, they will not look at you as representing yourself, they will look at you as the representative of your community. But it was my father who was spearheading the movement for change. And very many Luo civil servants became victims; they were sacked from their jobs. Intellectuals from the universities were sacked from their jobs; those who were not were not getting promotions. Executives in companies were just being sacked. So they became victims. As a result, there was a lot of resentment and despondency among the common men when they saw this kind of repression being meted out to innocent people. So it is not that the Luos are a rebellious people as such; they have been victims of ethnic victimization and ethnic cleansing. That is why there has been resistance. So it is not by nature that we are people who would just oppose for the purpose of just opposing. You see, Kenya and by extension Africa will never develop until we deal a death blow to this animal called ethnicity. A nation that is run along ethnic lines is a nation that is at war with itself.
AFRICA TODAY: Your father was the most dominant political figure
in the Luo community during his lifetime. Here you are, you have followed
in his footstep as the de facto political supremo of the community today;
will I be right to describe you as the undisputable leader of the Luo people,
rather than a nationalist leader of all Kenyans? Or would you want to say
like Chief Obafemi Awolowo once said in Nigeria that he could not have been
recognized as a national leader in Nigeria without having first been recognized
as the leader (Asiwaju) of his Yoruba people? The point I am getting at
is, would you say that you would not have been a nationalist leader of all
Kenyans if you had not been the acclaimed leader of your Luo people first?
ODINGA: You see unlike my father, I did not begin my politics in Luo land. I started my politics in Nairobi. I contested for a seat in a constituency called Langata. It is one of the eight constituencies in Nairobi, which is a very cosmopolitan constituency. The Luos there constitute a minority. I think they are just about 30 percent of the total voters in Langata constituency. I was elected and that was what gave me the springboard into national politics. It was from there that I introduced myself to the rest of the country, including here in Kisumu. Now, because of the ethnic politics here, people would associate with you first and foremost because of your ethnic background. For example, if you are a Yoruba born and brought up in Abuja, you will find that the Yoruba would want to own you first before the Igbo and the Hausa/Fulani. So that is the way it is here too. Of course, I also have roots in Luo land through my father and my own people, but it is not true to say that if I had not been a leader here in Luo land I would not have been a national politician. Another Luo politician who became a national leader without roots here in Luo land is Tom Mboya. He was born and brought up in central part of this country and started his politics also in Nairobi. So, you see, people only associate me with Luo politics here because of my father. But of all the politicians today on the national scene, I am the only urban politician who represents a multi-ethnic cosmopolitan constituency in the country; and therefore, I am fairly accepted across the country. It is only a kind of media image that has been painted of Raila Odinga as a Luo Supremo.
ODINGA: You see unlike my father, I did not begin my politics in Luo land. I started my politics in Nairobi. I contested for a seat in a constituency called Langata. It is one of the eight constituencies in Nairobi, which is a very cosmopolitan constituency. The Luos there constitute a minority. I think they are just about 30 percent of the total voters in Langata constituency. I was elected and that was what gave me the springboard into national politics. It was from there that I introduced myself to the rest of the country, including here in Kisumu. Now, because of the ethnic politics here, people would associate with you first and foremost because of your ethnic background. For example, if you are a Yoruba born and brought up in Abuja, you will find that the Yoruba would want to own you first before the Igbo and the Hausa/Fulani. So that is the way it is here too. Of course, I also have roots in Luo land through my father and my own people, but it is not true to say that if I had not been a leader here in Luo land I would not have been a national politician. Another Luo politician who became a national leader without roots here in Luo land is Tom Mboya. He was born and brought up in central part of this country and started his politics also in Nairobi. So, you see, people only associate me with Luo politics here because of my father. But of all the politicians today on the national scene, I am the only urban politician who represents a multi-ethnic cosmopolitan constituency in the country; and therefore, I am fairly accepted across the country. It is only a kind of media image that has been painted of Raila Odinga as a Luo Supremo.
AFRICA TODAY: You must feel burdened by the expectations of the
Luo community, otherwise, how is it that any politician from the community
who differs with you politically automatically fails to get elected into parliament?
ODINGA: It is not really true that they fail to get elected because of their disagreement with me. The Luo people are very critical people and very analytical. They will not follow somebody blindly. They will follow you because of what you stand for vis-à-vis their own interests. It is true that in politics there are adversaries and people disagree politically, and if you disagree you don't go and support each other in elective politics. I mean, if I am not your supporter and I am running in your constituency and you've got somebody who is your supporter in politics. But then the decision is left to the people to make. So the fact that these other people fail to get elected is basically their failure to convince the electorate that they were right and that Raila was wrong.
ODINGA: It is not really true that they fail to get elected because of their disagreement with me. The Luo people are very critical people and very analytical. They will not follow somebody blindly. They will follow you because of what you stand for vis-à-vis their own interests. It is true that in politics there are adversaries and people disagree politically, and if you disagree you don't go and support each other in elective politics. I mean, if I am not your supporter and I am running in your constituency and you've got somebody who is your supporter in politics. But then the decision is left to the people to make. So the fact that these other people fail to get elected is basically their failure to convince the electorate that they were right and that Raila was wrong.
AFRICA TODAY: You are the longest political detainee in independent
Kenya. You spent eight-and-half-years in prison because you led an unsuccessful
coup in 1982 against the government of Daniel arap Moi and you only owned
up to staging the coup after Moi left office. What made you to want to overthrow
President Moi?
ODINGA: Did you see it as a kind of contradiction that a civilian would be accused of staging a military coup? It sounds ridiculous. That is how ridiculous African politics can be. The military don't take commands from civilians, but in Africa the impossible is possible. I was charged with treason, but they were not able to get evidence because there was none. And after six months of trying to cook up some evidence they failed. At first, they wanted to do some kangaroo trial, but when my friends in the UK collected money and hired a QC to come and take up my defense, all that so-called evidence they had gathered just melted into the thin air. And they had no other option than to enter nulli prose cue.
ODINGA: Did you see it as a kind of contradiction that a civilian would be accused of staging a military coup? It sounds ridiculous. That is how ridiculous African politics can be. The military don't take commands from civilians, but in Africa the impossible is possible. I was charged with treason, but they were not able to get evidence because there was none. And after six months of trying to cook up some evidence they failed. At first, they wanted to do some kangaroo trial, but when my friends in the UK collected money and hired a QC to come and take up my defense, all that so-called evidence they had gathered just melted into the thin air. And they had no other option than to enter nulli prose cue.
AFRICA TODAY: So you did not try to overthrow President Moi?
ODINGA: I was not involved in trying to overthrow him.
ODINGA: I was not involved in trying to overthrow him.
AFRICA TODAY: Do you have a feeling that Kenyans owe you the
presidency because you have been the politician that has suffered the most
ostensibly on their behalf. Nobody among those running against you for president
has suffered like you?
ODINGA: I don't think that Kenyans owe me the presidency because of suffering. I don't think that the level, or extent, or the amount of suffering is a measure or qualification for leadership. I think that you need much more than that. There are people who have made more sacrifices than me; the people who were maimed in the process, the people who paid the ultimate price in the process. I think that I have other credentials that qualify me for the presidency of this country. One is that I represent change. I want to reform this country. Two, I have a better vision that will help to move this country from a backward, struggling Third World economy to a Second World and eventually First World economy. I have basically what it takes to get there. As a start, this country needs a new constitution because governance is at the core of the problems we have in this country. That is why I feel that I have the best credentials of all the people in the field to be elected president apart from my role in the struggle for change.
ODINGA: I don't think that Kenyans owe me the presidency because of suffering. I don't think that the level, or extent, or the amount of suffering is a measure or qualification for leadership. I think that you need much more than that. There are people who have made more sacrifices than me; the people who were maimed in the process, the people who paid the ultimate price in the process. I think that I have other credentials that qualify me for the presidency of this country. One is that I represent change. I want to reform this country. Two, I have a better vision that will help to move this country from a backward, struggling Third World economy to a Second World and eventually First World economy. I have basically what it takes to get there. As a start, this country needs a new constitution because governance is at the core of the problems we have in this country. That is why I feel that I have the best credentials of all the people in the field to be elected president apart from my role in the struggle for change.
AFRICA TODAY: Why is it then that anytime you are running for
president allegations start flying around that they want to assassinate you.
Is this your way of getting sympathy from supporters?
ODINGA: I will never basically just cry wolf. I think it is very cheap for somebody to make wild allegations that people want to kill him, because ultimately people don't believe you. But I also believe that if you get credible evidence and information that people are planning harm, it is good to expose it because our history is fraught with this kind of plans and plots which have often been executed. We've had Pio Gama Pinto who was assassinated in 1965 as he was just driving out of his house with his child. Tom Mboya had been warned of plots to assassinate him, but because he did not take them seriously they pumped bullets into him. Josiah Mwangi Kariuki had equally been warned. He was dragged from a hotel and killed him in a gory manner; they removed his teeth, cut out his eyes; they took him to hyena park poured acid on him. Robert Ouko was dragged from his home, he was found bound after they had killed him. And lately when we were at this constitutional review conference in Nairobi, one of my strong supporters Dr Obhimbo Mbayi, had been warned that people wanted to kill him, and they just drove into his home and shot him. This was two years ago. So you can see that these threats are not just made up. I therefore, don't say those things to earn sympathy.
ODINGA: I will never basically just cry wolf. I think it is very cheap for somebody to make wild allegations that people want to kill him, because ultimately people don't believe you. But I also believe that if you get credible evidence and information that people are planning harm, it is good to expose it because our history is fraught with this kind of plans and plots which have often been executed. We've had Pio Gama Pinto who was assassinated in 1965 as he was just driving out of his house with his child. Tom Mboya had been warned of plots to assassinate him, but because he did not take them seriously they pumped bullets into him. Josiah Mwangi Kariuki had equally been warned. He was dragged from a hotel and killed him in a gory manner; they removed his teeth, cut out his eyes; they took him to hyena park poured acid on him. Robert Ouko was dragged from his home, he was found bound after they had killed him. And lately when we were at this constitutional review conference in Nairobi, one of my strong supporters Dr Obhimbo Mbayi, had been warned that people wanted to kill him, and they just drove into his home and shot him. This was two years ago. So you can see that these threats are not just made up. I therefore, don't say those things to earn sympathy.
AFRICA TODAY: There seems to be leaps of consistencies in your
political thinking. What informs your political maneuvers?
ODINGA: I don't think maneuver is the right word. As a politician you just have to be consistent. So long as you are consistent and you have clarity of mind in what you want to do, and your vision is clear, you will always see the danger whenever it is coming. You will know when to move and when to retreat. You don't just move, otherwise you will just land in the hands of your political adversaries.
ODINGA: I don't think maneuver is the right word. As a politician you just have to be consistent. So long as you are consistent and you have clarity of mind in what you want to do, and your vision is clear, you will always see the danger whenever it is coming. You will know when to move and when to retreat. You don't just move, otherwise you will just land in the hands of your political adversaries.
President Kibaki (R) with his political
foe Odinga, the perennial opposition leader, now seeking a national electoral
mandate
AFRICA TODAY: You have undoubtedly successfully created an image
for yourself among the Kenyan public that you are a democrat. But your critics
say you are a person with dictatorial tendencies too, in the sense that
you routinely lock out Luo MPs who refuse to succumb to your whims, even when
their conviction has appeal. How do you respond to that?
ODINGA: You see Luo MPs are not hostage to me. They are people who are elected directly by their people to be MPs. So long as they perform, they run no risk of being removed. If you ask them themselves they will tell you that there isn't a bigger democrat than Raila Odinga, because I believe in dialogue. If for instance I believe in something and I tried to convince you so that you can see my point of view, if eventually you don't see it, I will not hold it against you. I will tell you that you have a democratic right to hold your view, and that is the reason why, even in parliament, when they are voting, we usually talk. But on issues, which are critical and principled, we could apply the whip. They do it even in the British House of Commons. But there are other issues where you allow somebody to vote according to his or her conscience. So I do not want to force anybody to do what I believe is right or what is right for me. But there is always this kind of propaganda, but the facts are very clear.
ODINGA: You see Luo MPs are not hostage to me. They are people who are elected directly by their people to be MPs. So long as they perform, they run no risk of being removed. If you ask them themselves they will tell you that there isn't a bigger democrat than Raila Odinga, because I believe in dialogue. If for instance I believe in something and I tried to convince you so that you can see my point of view, if eventually you don't see it, I will not hold it against you. I will tell you that you have a democratic right to hold your view, and that is the reason why, even in parliament, when they are voting, we usually talk. But on issues, which are critical and principled, we could apply the whip. They do it even in the British House of Commons. But there are other issues where you allow somebody to vote according to his or her conscience. So I do not want to force anybody to do what I believe is right or what is right for me. But there is always this kind of propaganda, but the facts are very clear.
AFRICA TODAY: And you have said often that President Kibaki is
not a bad leader...
ODINGA: Yes.
ODINGA: Yes.
AFRICA TODAY: So why are you opposing him?
ODINGA: I have said that Kibaki as a person has certain positive aspects. If he did not have the unfortunate incident of the accident just before the elections, things would have turned out to be much different. Because of that, opportunists and ethnic chauvinists around with him took hold of the situation for their own selfish interests. He is now held hostage to that group of very retrogressive ethnic chauvinists who will not allow him to be himself. And I think that he needs to be freed from that bondage and the best way to do so is for him to exit the presidency. That is the reason why I am running against him. Actually I am running against him for his own good.
ODINGA: I have said that Kibaki as a person has certain positive aspects. If he did not have the unfortunate incident of the accident just before the elections, things would have turned out to be much different. Because of that, opportunists and ethnic chauvinists around with him took hold of the situation for their own selfish interests. He is now held hostage to that group of very retrogressive ethnic chauvinists who will not allow him to be himself. And I think that he needs to be freed from that bondage and the best way to do so is for him to exit the presidency. That is the reason why I am running against him. Actually I am running against him for his own good.
AFRICA TODAY: But is it not true that you fell out with President
Kibaki simply because you were not honoured with the non-existent position
of Prime Minister - a position, I understand, had secretly been agreed upon
by several of your colleagues together with President Kibaki in what is now
referred to as a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU)?
ODINGA: Firstly, the MoU was not a secret document. It was signed in the public. So the question of "secret" does not apply. President Kibaki committed himself both publicly and secretly that upon being elected as president he would midwife a new constitution within 100 days. The constitutional review commission had already published that draft constitution and we had a copy of it when we were signing the MoU. The MoU was between two parties, the National Alliance of Kenya (NAK) and the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP). We agreed that we were going to give the NAK the presidency and one vice-presidency, which was the late Michael Wamlwa Kijana. It was a quid pro quo that the LDP was going to get the premiership in exchange for the presidency and that was going to be me. And then Kalonzo Musyoka was to become another vice-president. Then there will be three deputy premiers. That was the power-sharing arrangement that had been agreed upon. It was not something imposed on anybody by Raila Odinga. We were going to the elections under the old constitution, which did not provide for the premiership, so we said we would wait until when the position of prime minister was created under the new constitution; meantime it was suggested that we would create a position of the chief minister, which he (Kibaki) could create even under the current constitution. He did not create it. But we were not bitter about that. We were also going to share power on a 50-50 basis in the cabinet. We had agreed a cabinet of 23 ministers, out of which we had suggested that the LDP gets eleven, the NAK gets 12. But when he appointed the cabinet he gave the LDP only seven and gave the NAK15 despite the fact that they also took the presidency and the vice-presidency. So it was not Raila Odinga who was short-changed, it was the entire partner, the LDP, that was short-changed in the arrangement. This is not a good precedence for African multi-party democracy not just for Kenya, but the whole of Africa, because elsewhere in the world in mature democracies, power-sharing arrangements are negotiated between political parties and they are honoured. Here they have not been honoured. The reason why we have been fighting to bring it out is basically for posterity so that we do not have a repeat of this kind of situation in future because it does not augur well for multi-party democracy in Africa. Political coalitions are going to be the order of the day as they are now in mature democracies. The winner takes all will not work.
ODINGA: Firstly, the MoU was not a secret document. It was signed in the public. So the question of "secret" does not apply. President Kibaki committed himself both publicly and secretly that upon being elected as president he would midwife a new constitution within 100 days. The constitutional review commission had already published that draft constitution and we had a copy of it when we were signing the MoU. The MoU was between two parties, the National Alliance of Kenya (NAK) and the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP). We agreed that we were going to give the NAK the presidency and one vice-presidency, which was the late Michael Wamlwa Kijana. It was a quid pro quo that the LDP was going to get the premiership in exchange for the presidency and that was going to be me. And then Kalonzo Musyoka was to become another vice-president. Then there will be three deputy premiers. That was the power-sharing arrangement that had been agreed upon. It was not something imposed on anybody by Raila Odinga. We were going to the elections under the old constitution, which did not provide for the premiership, so we said we would wait until when the position of prime minister was created under the new constitution; meantime it was suggested that we would create a position of the chief minister, which he (Kibaki) could create even under the current constitution. He did not create it. But we were not bitter about that. We were also going to share power on a 50-50 basis in the cabinet. We had agreed a cabinet of 23 ministers, out of which we had suggested that the LDP gets eleven, the NAK gets 12. But when he appointed the cabinet he gave the LDP only seven and gave the NAK15 despite the fact that they also took the presidency and the vice-presidency. So it was not Raila Odinga who was short-changed, it was the entire partner, the LDP, that was short-changed in the arrangement. This is not a good precedence for African multi-party democracy not just for Kenya, but the whole of Africa, because elsewhere in the world in mature democracies, power-sharing arrangements are negotiated between political parties and they are honoured. Here they have not been honoured. The reason why we have been fighting to bring it out is basically for posterity so that we do not have a repeat of this kind of situation in future because it does not augur well for multi-party democracy in Africa. Political coalitions are going to be the order of the day as they are now in mature democracies. The winner takes all will not work.
AFRICA TODAY: What reason did President Kibaki give for not honouring
that MoU?
ODINGA: He has never given any reason. He just remains mum. He gave an assurance that he would only be a one-term president. Recently he said he never said it. But anyway... he refused to put it in the MoU because it could be used against him. He denied it; and I indeed took up a Bible and swore that he did say it. So I saw that, for the first time, President Kibaki went out of his character to tell the nation a lie that he never promised anyone that he was going to go for just one-term as president. The other one - the violation of the MoU - he never spoke about it. He was just quiet; but this time around he publicly disowned what he had told us in private.
ODINGA: He has never given any reason. He just remains mum. He gave an assurance that he would only be a one-term president. Recently he said he never said it. But anyway... he refused to put it in the MoU because it could be used against him. He denied it; and I indeed took up a Bible and swore that he did say it. So I saw that, for the first time, President Kibaki went out of his character to tell the nation a lie that he never promised anyone that he was going to go for just one-term as president. The other one - the violation of the MoU - he never spoke about it. He was just quiet; but this time around he publicly disowned what he had told us in private.
AFRICA TODAY: What are the lessons learnt from the constitutional
referendum?
ODINGA: The referendum has to be seen with the elections of 2002. In 2002, Kenyans regained confidence in the power of the ballot, that they can use the ballot to bring about change, and that they can also change a regime through the ballot. Having voted for change in 1992 and 1997 and lost, they were basically becoming disillusioned and apathy was setting in, because in 1992, 64 percent voted against the government, only 36 percent voted for Moi and his government but they still won because the opposition's vote was split. The same thing happened in 1997 when we got 60 percent against Moi's 40 per cent. If you took my votes and Kibaki's votes in 1997, they were more than Moi's votes. That is why we came together in 2002. And this is what gave Kenyans the courage that you can actually vote against the government and win. So the referendum demonstrated peoples' confidence in their power to change the government.
ODINGA: The referendum has to be seen with the elections of 2002. In 2002, Kenyans regained confidence in the power of the ballot, that they can use the ballot to bring about change, and that they can also change a regime through the ballot. Having voted for change in 1992 and 1997 and lost, they were basically becoming disillusioned and apathy was setting in, because in 1992, 64 percent voted against the government, only 36 percent voted for Moi and his government but they still won because the opposition's vote was split. The same thing happened in 1997 when we got 60 percent against Moi's 40 per cent. If you took my votes and Kibaki's votes in 1997, they were more than Moi's votes. That is why we came together in 2002. And this is what gave Kenyans the courage that you can actually vote against the government and win. So the referendum demonstrated peoples' confidence in their power to change the government.
AFRICA TODAY: While working for the Kibaki administration, what
did you make of President Kibaki himself. Was he in control?
ODINGA: Unfortunately I will say no. May be for the reasons I have already explained. Outside, there is a façade that President Kibaki is in charge. I don't think that is exactly what it is. President Kibaki is just not there. The government is just drifting. The civil service, which is actually in charge, the head of the civil service gives instructions, which are supposedly from the president, but the cabinet rarely meets. When it meets, it does not meet for more than two hours. The president is tired, so you will find that there is a lot of backlog of memoranda that he needs to approve so that we can go to parliament - for example approvals that need to be translated into bills. So the parliament is just lying there. Once you've met, it takes another two months before another cabinet meeting takes place. By the time we were going for the referendum in November, cabinet had not meet since June. From June to November we didn't meet; and in November we were dismissed. And to get an appointment as a cabinet minister to see the president, if you asked for it, you will be lucky to get it in two weeks time, sometimes it can take as long as a month. So President Kibaki is just not in charge. It is the bureaucracy that is moving things.
ODINGA: Unfortunately I will say no. May be for the reasons I have already explained. Outside, there is a façade that President Kibaki is in charge. I don't think that is exactly what it is. President Kibaki is just not there. The government is just drifting. The civil service, which is actually in charge, the head of the civil service gives instructions, which are supposedly from the president, but the cabinet rarely meets. When it meets, it does not meet for more than two hours. The president is tired, so you will find that there is a lot of backlog of memoranda that he needs to approve so that we can go to parliament - for example approvals that need to be translated into bills. So the parliament is just lying there. Once you've met, it takes another two months before another cabinet meeting takes place. By the time we were going for the referendum in November, cabinet had not meet since June. From June to November we didn't meet; and in November we were dismissed. And to get an appointment as a cabinet minister to see the president, if you asked for it, you will be lucky to get it in two weeks time, sometimes it can take as long as a month. So President Kibaki is just not in charge. It is the bureaucracy that is moving things.
AFRICA TODAY: If as you have said he is not in charge how then
would you explain the unprecedented economic growth registered within a
short period of four years under President Kibaki, including the rehabilitation
of infrastructure previously in bad shape?
ODINGA: The private sector in this country plans more or less on its own through self-regulation. On the other hand if you remember when we started as NARC-Kenya government we had a very good team. Professor Peter Anyang' Nyong'o was minister for planning. He drew up a very good and comprehensive plan, and an economic recovery strategy paper which laid out sector targets, what needed to be done sector by sector. Then the ministers themselves of the various ministries came up with plans, like, I was in charge of roads and public works and that was when we came up with plans for rehabilitation and reconstruction of roads in the country, together with a budget for what needs to be done urgently. Housing was also under my charge. We had a number of white elephant projects dotted around the country, all for the purpose of making money, and they were abandoned midway. I came up with the plan to complete some of those projects countrywide. So the infrastructural development that is ongoing is basically product of my work when we started. Now the credit is going to Kibaki, which is very unfortunate. Also, take for instance the energy sector, I had been there previously as minister for energy and I came up with a new energy policy which my successor who is also a member of my party continued before he left. So I want to say that we who are now in the opposition have substantial share in initiating the kind of development to which now this government is being credited.
ODINGA: The private sector in this country plans more or less on its own through self-regulation. On the other hand if you remember when we started as NARC-Kenya government we had a very good team. Professor Peter Anyang' Nyong'o was minister for planning. He drew up a very good and comprehensive plan, and an economic recovery strategy paper which laid out sector targets, what needed to be done sector by sector. Then the ministers themselves of the various ministries came up with plans, like, I was in charge of roads and public works and that was when we came up with plans for rehabilitation and reconstruction of roads in the country, together with a budget for what needs to be done urgently. Housing was also under my charge. We had a number of white elephant projects dotted around the country, all for the purpose of making money, and they were abandoned midway. I came up with the plan to complete some of those projects countrywide. So the infrastructural development that is ongoing is basically product of my work when we started. Now the credit is going to Kibaki, which is very unfortunate. Also, take for instance the energy sector, I had been there previously as minister for energy and I came up with a new energy policy which my successor who is also a member of my party continued before he left. So I want to say that we who are now in the opposition have substantial share in initiating the kind of development to which now this government is being credited.
AFRICA TODAY: Again let me tell you what your critics say about
you. They say that while minister for roads you made attempts to sabotage
or slow down progress within your ministry so that the Kibaki administration
would look bad in public. How would you respond to that?
ODINGA: In fact, nothing could be further from the truth and even Kibaki himself knows it that I was the one who was fast-tracking the works. There were a number of ways through which my efforts were frustrated by not getting sufficient funds. I requested for example that we give less to other sectors since infrastructure was so important, that I get substantial allocation - I was asking for 50 billion shillings. We could have injected that into roads rehabilitation because the repair works had been stopped by the Moi government. By the time I took over 47 percent of our total road networks had completely collapsed only 53 percent was maintainable. This 47 percent required complete reconstruction. For the period I was there, I reduced it from 47 percent to 31 percent. I would have done more than that if I had received more resources. In that same period I revived that national housing corporation which had collapsed. We engaged in the construction of new housing in Nairobi, Mombassa, here in Kisumu and so on. That housing portfolio was under me for only one year before it was removed. So I initiated a lot of projects while I was still in the ministry at that time.
ODINGA: In fact, nothing could be further from the truth and even Kibaki himself knows it that I was the one who was fast-tracking the works. There were a number of ways through which my efforts were frustrated by not getting sufficient funds. I requested for example that we give less to other sectors since infrastructure was so important, that I get substantial allocation - I was asking for 50 billion shillings. We could have injected that into roads rehabilitation because the repair works had been stopped by the Moi government. By the time I took over 47 percent of our total road networks had completely collapsed only 53 percent was maintainable. This 47 percent required complete reconstruction. For the period I was there, I reduced it from 47 percent to 31 percent. I would have done more than that if I had received more resources. In that same period I revived that national housing corporation which had collapsed. We engaged in the construction of new housing in Nairobi, Mombassa, here in Kisumu and so on. That housing portfolio was under me for only one year before it was removed. So I initiated a lot of projects while I was still in the ministry at that time.
Uhuru Kenyatta, son of Kenya's founding
leader President Jomo Kenyatta
AFRICA TODAY: Before the 2002 elections you led your political
party - the National Development Party (NDP) - into a marriage with KANU,
which was then the ruling party, in controversial circumstances. What was
the reason behind the move?
ODINGA: You see, I thought about ethnic-based politics. In 1992 when Kenyans went to participate in the first multi-party elections the result showed that the country was divided along ethnic lines. My father who had been the leading pro-change activist candidate only managed to come fourth in the election because of the polarization of politics along ethnic lines. In 1997 we had wanted to unite the opposition but it was not possible; there were fifteen presidential candidates. I was one of them. I came third after Moi and Kibaki. In other words I got bronze medal ... (laughter). There, again, the lesson was that there was ethnic factor in voting. So I then looked at the whole situation and came to the conclusion that, first, the playing field was not level; we needed to have a level-playing field through mergers, legal and constitutional reforms, which we were not getting. Politics was highly polarized between the opposition and the ruling party. If you were in the ruling party and you were seen talking to the opposition, you were considered as selling secrets to the enemy. If you were in the opposition and seen talking to the ruling party, you were about to defect to the government. We then decided that, look; in five years from now things must change. As a party, how do we advance our territory? How do we capture new territories so that we can expand our support base in the coming elections? We realized that the fields, which were occupied by our fellow opposition parties, were like waters without fish. In other words, the DP supporters and the FORD-Kenya supporters were already in the opposition, there is no new message you'll tell them to make them to leave their party to join a new party. The only party or water you'll fish from must be KANU, the ruling party's waters. KANU itself had been powerful for a very long time and they had tentacles all over the country. Besides they had zoned the country. There were areas that were no-go zones for the opposition. So we realized that for us to be able to sell our policies in those areas we needed to find a way of easing the tension between the opposition and the ruling party. So we came out with the policy of co-operation among all political parties, so that we could reduce the political temperature. That had beneficial results, as a result of which we were able to jump-start the constitutional review process. I came out with a motion in parliament to set up a select committee to spearhead the process and I was selected chairman. I then went ahead to seek advice all over because the issue of constitutional review was controversial. I got assistance and support from many countries. I got the chief justice of Uganda who had been the chairman of their review commission - Justice Udoki. He came here and gave us advice. I went and met Cyril Ramaphosa who had also been chair of the assembly in South Africa. I got a lot of valuable information from him. I went to Abuja and met former President Obasanjo, and he sought services of two leading lawyers, Professor Ben Nwabueze and Justice Akinola Aguda. Nwabueze was not available, but he managed to send Aguda who came here to Kenya and gave us a lot of valuable advice. I also got advice from India. We appointed a leading legal scholar and constitutional expert in the world, Professor Yash Pal Ghai, who is also a Kenyan, to chair the review commission. With this going on, the relationship improved with the ruling party. Moi himself was outgoing and he was not going to be a competitor in the coming elections. This gave us the opportunity to sell our policies in the KANU zones. So we agreed to form a coalition with KANU, which was becoming more and more benign. Because KANU had an elaborate structure, we thought we could take it and transform it into a machinery or instrument for change by reforming it from within. The first priority was reforming it. We negotiated heavily because we thought that if we were able to bring these two parties together we would be able to reduce ethnic politics and combine the various communities together under one umbrella. In the negotiations we wanted to change KANU into a modern social democratic party. We then gave it a name of New KANU, with a new constitution and new manifesto. That was the basis of the merger. In other words NDP did not just go into KANU. It was a new party called New KANU. That is how we merged the two parties and I became the secretary-general of the new party. But as we began now to operate the conservative elements within KANU began to push and reversed some of the gains that we have made. There was suspicion between them and us and things reached a head when the time for nominating a presidential candidate came and Moi, in cohort with the conservative wing decided to impose a candidate for the party in Uhuru Kenyatta. We resisted, we told him we want a democratic process, we want proper nominations. If your preferred candidate wins, we shall support him. If he loses, then we'll need to support somebody else. But he was not ready to take that and that is the reason why we parted company. But let me make it clear that in this, we did not compromise our principles at all. It was a negotiated arrangement, which just did not work.
ODINGA: You see, I thought about ethnic-based politics. In 1992 when Kenyans went to participate in the first multi-party elections the result showed that the country was divided along ethnic lines. My father who had been the leading pro-change activist candidate only managed to come fourth in the election because of the polarization of politics along ethnic lines. In 1997 we had wanted to unite the opposition but it was not possible; there were fifteen presidential candidates. I was one of them. I came third after Moi and Kibaki. In other words I got bronze medal ... (laughter). There, again, the lesson was that there was ethnic factor in voting. So I then looked at the whole situation and came to the conclusion that, first, the playing field was not level; we needed to have a level-playing field through mergers, legal and constitutional reforms, which we were not getting. Politics was highly polarized between the opposition and the ruling party. If you were in the ruling party and you were seen talking to the opposition, you were considered as selling secrets to the enemy. If you were in the opposition and seen talking to the ruling party, you were about to defect to the government. We then decided that, look; in five years from now things must change. As a party, how do we advance our territory? How do we capture new territories so that we can expand our support base in the coming elections? We realized that the fields, which were occupied by our fellow opposition parties, were like waters without fish. In other words, the DP supporters and the FORD-Kenya supporters were already in the opposition, there is no new message you'll tell them to make them to leave their party to join a new party. The only party or water you'll fish from must be KANU, the ruling party's waters. KANU itself had been powerful for a very long time and they had tentacles all over the country. Besides they had zoned the country. There were areas that were no-go zones for the opposition. So we realized that for us to be able to sell our policies in those areas we needed to find a way of easing the tension between the opposition and the ruling party. So we came out with the policy of co-operation among all political parties, so that we could reduce the political temperature. That had beneficial results, as a result of which we were able to jump-start the constitutional review process. I came out with a motion in parliament to set up a select committee to spearhead the process and I was selected chairman. I then went ahead to seek advice all over because the issue of constitutional review was controversial. I got assistance and support from many countries. I got the chief justice of Uganda who had been the chairman of their review commission - Justice Udoki. He came here and gave us advice. I went and met Cyril Ramaphosa who had also been chair of the assembly in South Africa. I got a lot of valuable information from him. I went to Abuja and met former President Obasanjo, and he sought services of two leading lawyers, Professor Ben Nwabueze and Justice Akinola Aguda. Nwabueze was not available, but he managed to send Aguda who came here to Kenya and gave us a lot of valuable advice. I also got advice from India. We appointed a leading legal scholar and constitutional expert in the world, Professor Yash Pal Ghai, who is also a Kenyan, to chair the review commission. With this going on, the relationship improved with the ruling party. Moi himself was outgoing and he was not going to be a competitor in the coming elections. This gave us the opportunity to sell our policies in the KANU zones. So we agreed to form a coalition with KANU, which was becoming more and more benign. Because KANU had an elaborate structure, we thought we could take it and transform it into a machinery or instrument for change by reforming it from within. The first priority was reforming it. We negotiated heavily because we thought that if we were able to bring these two parties together we would be able to reduce ethnic politics and combine the various communities together under one umbrella. In the negotiations we wanted to change KANU into a modern social democratic party. We then gave it a name of New KANU, with a new constitution and new manifesto. That was the basis of the merger. In other words NDP did not just go into KANU. It was a new party called New KANU. That is how we merged the two parties and I became the secretary-general of the new party. But as we began now to operate the conservative elements within KANU began to push and reversed some of the gains that we have made. There was suspicion between them and us and things reached a head when the time for nominating a presidential candidate came and Moi, in cohort with the conservative wing decided to impose a candidate for the party in Uhuru Kenyatta. We resisted, we told him we want a democratic process, we want proper nominations. If your preferred candidate wins, we shall support him. If he loses, then we'll need to support somebody else. But he was not ready to take that and that is the reason why we parted company. But let me make it clear that in this, we did not compromise our principles at all. It was a negotiated arrangement, which just did not work.
AFRICA TODAY: With the benefit of hindsight do you have any regrets
over this union with President Moi and KANU?
ODINGA: No, it helped us to also liberate many people who had been held hostage within KANU, in the process weakening it. It was now possible to easily defeat it in the subsequent elections.
ODINGA: No, it helped us to also liberate many people who had been held hostage within KANU, in the process weakening it. It was now possible to easily defeat it in the subsequent elections.
AFRICA TODAY: You are now a member of the Orange Democratic Movement
(ODM). Eight other members of the Movement are also seeking the party's nomination
for the presidential ticket. How do you rate them vis-à-vis yourself?
ODINGA: Anybody who gets into the ring with me has an equal chance of winning or losing. I respect all my colleagues who are seeking the presidential ticket. I consider them as colleagues or comrades. We share many things in common. I desire to be nominated because nobody goes into the contest knowing that he or she is going to lose. There is no point in going in the first place if you know you are going to lose. That is why sometimes I have exuded confidence because I know I am going to win. But whoever is nominated will be supported and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. If I am not the candidate, I shall give my unqualified support to whoever is going to be nominated by the party.
ODINGA: Anybody who gets into the ring with me has an equal chance of winning or losing. I respect all my colleagues who are seeking the presidential ticket. I consider them as colleagues or comrades. We share many things in common. I desire to be nominated because nobody goes into the contest knowing that he or she is going to lose. There is no point in going in the first place if you know you are going to lose. That is why sometimes I have exuded confidence because I know I am going to win. But whoever is nominated will be supported and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. If I am not the candidate, I shall give my unqualified support to whoever is going to be nominated by the party.
AFRICA TODAY: You mean that with all seriousness and sincerity?
ODINGA: Exactly.
ODINGA: Exactly.
AFRICA TODAY: It is widely perceived that the ODM is actually
not an alternative to the current government led by President Kibaki since
it is a gathering of people who felt aggrieved by the Kibaki administration
that refused to do their bidding. In other word, the ODM is made up of
people whose only goal is to take power by hook or crook from President
Kibaki? How would you respond to that?
ODINGA: I want to agree that it is a grouping of people with desperate political persuasion in the past. But you see, political alliances and coalition is now the order of the day, particularly in transitional situation like this. If you are going through dictatorship to democracy there is always need to create a broad based alliance - what you call popular democratic mould. That sort of movement must of necessity bring in other elements into it. What is more important is how the people within manage. At this point in time we need to have reformers who are fully in charge of the movement to be able to reap the full benefit of the momentum that we have created. In this kind of situation we cannot afford to go for political purity, otherwise you will need a lot of forces, which are likely to give you a lot of votes. We are not trying to go for retribution and revenge. What we need in this country is reconciliation and that is why I am saying that we intend to set up truth, justice, reconciliation and restitution commission, so that the society can be reconciled, because there has been a lot of ills that have been committed against the people of Kenya by certain people. They should be given the opportunity like it happened in South Africa to own up and apologize. There are also a lot of areas where people have illegally acquired public wealth; they should be given the opportunity to restitute. The adversarial system, which has been followed by this government, has not paid any dividends. There are better ways of dealing with our past. We should not permanently live in the past. We should leave the past quickly and get on with the task of developing the country.
ODINGA: I want to agree that it is a grouping of people with desperate political persuasion in the past. But you see, political alliances and coalition is now the order of the day, particularly in transitional situation like this. If you are going through dictatorship to democracy there is always need to create a broad based alliance - what you call popular democratic mould. That sort of movement must of necessity bring in other elements into it. What is more important is how the people within manage. At this point in time we need to have reformers who are fully in charge of the movement to be able to reap the full benefit of the momentum that we have created. In this kind of situation we cannot afford to go for political purity, otherwise you will need a lot of forces, which are likely to give you a lot of votes. We are not trying to go for retribution and revenge. What we need in this country is reconciliation and that is why I am saying that we intend to set up truth, justice, reconciliation and restitution commission, so that the society can be reconciled, because there has been a lot of ills that have been committed against the people of Kenya by certain people. They should be given the opportunity like it happened in South Africa to own up and apologize. There are also a lot of areas where people have illegally acquired public wealth; they should be given the opportunity to restitute. The adversarial system, which has been followed by this government, has not paid any dividends. There are better ways of dealing with our past. We should not permanently live in the past. We should leave the past quickly and get on with the task of developing the country.
AFRICA TODAY: As a democrat and one who has been in the struggle
for a long time and suffered imprisonment and solitary confinement, if you
take a critical look at the ODM, you will agree that majority of its members,
particularly those seeking the presidential ticket are people who came late
to join the struggle to dismantle the authoritarian rule associated with the
previous regime of Daniel arap Moi. Is your conscience not pricked when you
sit with these people of doubtful democratic credentials?
ODINGA: I am the one who has been in the Moi's system the least. I was there for just under one year. But all the people who are in NARC-Kenya government today - Kibaki was Moi's vice-president for 10 years, at the height of the violation of human rights; he was the vice-president and minister of finance, the minister for health. The vice-president for now was Moi's vice-president for 23 years. Most of the people who are in government today were in that Moi's regime.
ODINGA: I am the one who has been in the Moi's system the least. I was there for just under one year. But all the people who are in NARC-Kenya government today - Kibaki was Moi's vice-president for 10 years, at the height of the violation of human rights; he was the vice-president and minister of finance, the minister for health. The vice-president for now was Moi's vice-president for 23 years. Most of the people who are in government today were in that Moi's regime.
AFRICA TODAY: How can ODM claim to be an alternative to the government
of President Kibaki when its touch bearers include William Ruto and Kalonzo
Musyoka, two individuals who formed the inner circle of Moi's autocracy?
ODINGA: People basically learn from their mistakes...
ODINGA: People basically learn from their mistakes...
AFRICA TODAY: Sorry to cut you there, but in the case of Kalonzo
Musyoka, a recent Gallup Poll conducted showed you trailing behind him in
popularity until very recently. How much did you read into that?
ODINGA: It was because there had been the perception there in the past that the constitution was going to be changed and we would go for a parliamentary system of government. I was going to go for the position of prime minister and Kalonzo will be ceremonial president, therefore, when they were doing the polling at that time they rated him higher and they would not rate me higher as prime minister. Now that they have realized that we are going to have this election under the current constitution that is the reason why his rating has nose-dived and that is why my rating has gone higher now.
ODINGA: It was because there had been the perception there in the past that the constitution was going to be changed and we would go for a parliamentary system of government. I was going to go for the position of prime minister and Kalonzo will be ceremonial president, therefore, when they were doing the polling at that time they rated him higher and they would not rate me higher as prime minister. Now that they have realized that we are going to have this election under the current constitution that is the reason why his rating has nose-dived and that is why my rating has gone higher now.
AFRICA TODAY: In the past you have made attempts at the presidency
and failed. This time around, has anything changed to give you confidence
that you will bag the coveted trophy and become president of Kenya?
ODINGA: Yes, I think many things have changed. One, I think what we did in 2002 set us out as nationalists who want to unite this country. That raised our credentials nationally. Two, this government has failed Kenyans in very critical areas. They failed to deliver the new constitution. Corruption has become a big disappointment, instead of it going down it has actually gone up. The Goldenberg scandals gave birth to Anglo-Leasing scandal. There was the issue of the mercenaries, and now there is a sect call Mungiki that is killing people all over the place. Insecurity is a big issue in the country. Investors are scared coming to the country under the state of insecurity. Business in the country is suffering seriously. Economy generally, especially in the rural areas is suffering. The other factor is the issue of ethnicity. Ethnic discrimination is at the highest since independence. The Kibaki regime only sees people from one particular area of this country. They control the economy. They control the security services. They control the civil service - the permanent secretaries, you name it. If you take for example the ministry of finance, the minister is from Kibaki's community, the assistant minister, the permanent secretary, the financial secretary, the director of budget, the governor of the central bank, the commissioner of Kenyan revenue authority, the commissioner of customs, the heads of department, the diplomatic service - I can go on and on, they are all from one community, which is Kibaki's tribe (Kikuyu). This has angered many people. The appointments were done in very discriminatory manner. All these are basically general failures of this government that even the little gains in the economy that has been flaunted is cancelled by these negatives. The claim is that the economy is now growing at six per cent; what they are not saying is that they changed the accounting system for the calculation of the GDP in 2000, 2002 and 2004 by factoring in other sectors which were not factored in under Moi's time, and that had the effect of increasing the GDP by two percent. So if you take the Moi's way of calculation it is not six percent but four percent. But the most important thing is that that is only concentrated in the hand of a few people. The majority of the population is not feeling it because the situation is worse than what it was four years ago. All these basically have increased my chances and appeal nationally. None of these people who are campaigning is known nationally as much as me. I have the tag of a true nationalist and patriot.
ODINGA: Yes, I think many things have changed. One, I think what we did in 2002 set us out as nationalists who want to unite this country. That raised our credentials nationally. Two, this government has failed Kenyans in very critical areas. They failed to deliver the new constitution. Corruption has become a big disappointment, instead of it going down it has actually gone up. The Goldenberg scandals gave birth to Anglo-Leasing scandal. There was the issue of the mercenaries, and now there is a sect call Mungiki that is killing people all over the place. Insecurity is a big issue in the country. Investors are scared coming to the country under the state of insecurity. Business in the country is suffering seriously. Economy generally, especially in the rural areas is suffering. The other factor is the issue of ethnicity. Ethnic discrimination is at the highest since independence. The Kibaki regime only sees people from one particular area of this country. They control the economy. They control the security services. They control the civil service - the permanent secretaries, you name it. If you take for example the ministry of finance, the minister is from Kibaki's community, the assistant minister, the permanent secretary, the financial secretary, the director of budget, the governor of the central bank, the commissioner of Kenyan revenue authority, the commissioner of customs, the heads of department, the diplomatic service - I can go on and on, they are all from one community, which is Kibaki's tribe (Kikuyu). This has angered many people. The appointments were done in very discriminatory manner. All these are basically general failures of this government that even the little gains in the economy that has been flaunted is cancelled by these negatives. The claim is that the economy is now growing at six per cent; what they are not saying is that they changed the accounting system for the calculation of the GDP in 2000, 2002 and 2004 by factoring in other sectors which were not factored in under Moi's time, and that had the effect of increasing the GDP by two percent. So if you take the Moi's way of calculation it is not six percent but four percent. But the most important thing is that that is only concentrated in the hand of a few people. The majority of the population is not feeling it because the situation is worse than what it was four years ago. All these basically have increased my chances and appeal nationally. None of these people who are campaigning is known nationally as much as me. I have the tag of a true nationalist and patriot.
AFRICA TODAY: Assuming you fail to win the ODM ticket and be
the party's presidential candidate, how would you convince the ODM party
faithful that you would not abandon them and the party and move ahead to
form another party like you have routinely done in the past?
ODINGA: You see, my objective is not to be president of this country. I have said that I am willing to serve in any capacity, even as a cleaner somewhere. My objective is to bring about change in our country, by extension change to the African continent. I want to use this country as a model for African development. Changing of parties is not an objective by itself; it is often forced by circumstances. Winston Churchill said that it is better to compromise your party for your principles than compromising your principles for your party. And that he was truly a democrat who had been forced by circumstances to serve in another party. I have never changed my faith politically but circumstances have forced me. And you must bear in mind that political party formation in this country is still at its infancy. I have been very consistent in standing for what I believe is right. I will stay with ODM after the elections because I believe in the policies of ODM. We do not need the proliferation of political parties in Africa. What we need are few political parties for multi-party democracy to work properly. Small, fragmented political parties in the opposition basically help the incumbent as the experience in Nigeria and other African countries has shown. That is why I have been working to bring all these parties together to form a strong party. That was why we formed the NARC-Kenya coalition that helped us to defeat KANU. That is why we formed ODM to help us defeat NARC-Kenya in the referendum. If we have two big political parties, multipartism would thrive, so that if one party is for the government, the other one checks it. That is what I believe in. And I believe that the experiment that we have helped to carry out in this country can be useful for African democratization through out the continent.
ODINGA: You see, my objective is not to be president of this country. I have said that I am willing to serve in any capacity, even as a cleaner somewhere. My objective is to bring about change in our country, by extension change to the African continent. I want to use this country as a model for African development. Changing of parties is not an objective by itself; it is often forced by circumstances. Winston Churchill said that it is better to compromise your party for your principles than compromising your principles for your party. And that he was truly a democrat who had been forced by circumstances to serve in another party. I have never changed my faith politically but circumstances have forced me. And you must bear in mind that political party formation in this country is still at its infancy. I have been very consistent in standing for what I believe is right. I will stay with ODM after the elections because I believe in the policies of ODM. We do not need the proliferation of political parties in Africa. What we need are few political parties for multi-party democracy to work properly. Small, fragmented political parties in the opposition basically help the incumbent as the experience in Nigeria and other African countries has shown. That is why I have been working to bring all these parties together to form a strong party. That was why we formed the NARC-Kenya coalition that helped us to defeat KANU. That is why we formed ODM to help us defeat NARC-Kenya in the referendum. If we have two big political parties, multipartism would thrive, so that if one party is for the government, the other one checks it. That is what I believe in. And I believe that the experiment that we have helped to carry out in this country can be useful for African democratization through out the continent.
AFRICA TODAY: Honourable Raila Odinga, it is really a pleasure
to meet the Churchill of Kenyan politics and a great pan-Africanist like
you; many thanks for this very intimate and passionate interview.....
ODINGA: Thank you for coming all the way to Kenya.
ODINGA: Thank you for coming all the way to Kenya.
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